I've spent a lot of time in the last two weeks arguing with Creationists. Some of them talk archaeology, try to disprove Carbon-14 dating, etc etc etc.
I've never gotten anywhere with them until now.
Don't start with the fossil record, the depth of the Grand Canyon, or Darwin.
Start by arguing that snakes can't talk. They can't. They never have. Snakes can't talk.
TLG and Jarl, You could also see the serpent as a metaphor for temptation or the burdens associated with reason and knowledge.
Earlier in the same story, you coulld see the 6 days of creation as a metaphor for the building blocks of life and the place where early man saw himself in the plant and animal hierarchy.
Why are people so loyal to the ideal of the talking snake? And why do some Christians insist that the snake was Satan incarnate? It's a slippery slope argument that goes like this:
We're not worthy of anything but damnation, so Jesus had to die to save us from our sins. Why aren't we worth anything but damnation? Because we were born sinful. Why are we born sinful? Because of the concept of Original Sin. What is Original Sin? It's the idea that we inherit sinfulness that has been passed down to us ever since Eve at the forbidden fruit. Sin entered the world (and us) at that moment. And why did Eve eat the forbidden fruit? Because of the talking snake.
That story doesn't make a lick of sense, and here's why:
Snakes can't talk.
We've invented multi-leveled heavesns and hells, populated them with our friends and enemies, held inquisitions, gone on Crusades, perpetrated Holocausts, and wasted lots of time in the Texas legislature in the last 6 months to defend a house of cards that has a major flaw in its foundation. And that flaw is....
Well, the strangest creationist arguments I have always heard are moral ones.
"I you believe we came from slime then you'll act like slime".
To which I counter - but what slime!
Slime which send Neil, Mike and Buzz on a long weekend? Slime that built the Large Hadron Collider? Or wrote Bach's cantatas? Or the plays of Shakespeare?
That's slime I can believe in!
Anyway. If you take a shufti over at youtube you will find some beautiful animations of the molecular dynamics of life.
If I believed in God (which I don't) then I like to think I could see His hand more in such gorgeous intricacies than in Bronze Age fairytales.
Not as a designer. Just for letting it happen.
Because that, for me, truly is the tree of knowledge. Not of good and evil as much as just about stuff.
Dude.. You say that snakes can't talk now so they couldn't then. Let me guess.. You believe in evolution? Well monkeys can't talk and evolution "proves" that humans came from monkeys. And wait, doesn't evolution ALSO say that organisms started as simple celled?? Well then how can you argue that evolution is true, when monkeys can't talk but humans can, and at the same time argue that snakes can't talk NOW so it must mean they never could? It is completely contradictory. In addition, if one believes in God, they would understand that God created the whole earth and everything on it and in the universe. If God can do that... Why couldn't He make an animal talk for a period of time? He can do WHATEVER He wants. He's God.
Nick, Well said. I'm starting to define God more and more, not as male or female, not as present or "other", not as omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient, but as "THIS".
The sum total of everything. It works for me.
Creationist Anon, You are right in that if "God" does intervene in earthly matters, he could've made the serpent talk. He also could've made Balaam's donkey talk (check out the story in the book of Numbers). But how long has it been since you heard anything about Balaam's donkey (aka Balaam's ass) ? Not many sermons are done about this poor critter these days. You know why? BECAUSE DONKEYS CAN'T TALK ! ! !
Check out the latest Wikipedia article on Balaam, and follow the references ! The early Jewish commentators taught the story as a myth. Ditto for the Christians. It's a folk tale ! The people that made it up knew that they were just telling a freakin' story ! And it doesn't even hold up well any more.
Another thing....let's accept the idea of a 6,000 year old earth. When did the last talking serpent or donkey die?
Do you accept the story that Mohammad ascended into the heavens and then to Medina on the back of a winged horse that had the face of a man? Could God have done that?
Have you noticed that talking varmints and miraculous healings have tapered off in the last few thousand years?
One other thing on evolution. The general idea is that man and monkeys (and cats and dogs and serpents and donkeys) all came from a common ancestor.
Homework assignment: write a 250 word essay about which Genesis timeline is more convincing, the one from chapter 1, or the one in chapter 2.
For details, go here: http://thewhitedsepulchre.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-to-teach-creationism.html
Well sir I'm sorry to tell you that people are trying to pass the Holocaust off as a myth as well. You can tell me I'm wrong all you want I have seen primary accounts of people declaring this. Now are you going to tell me that just because people SAY it didn't happen that it didn't?? Well apply this to what people think about Balaam and Genesis. Please...don't try to put me down. I'm not swayed by insults. And since when is wikipedia a credible source?? Many universities do not allow their students to even use that site. Why? Because it's not credible. So when you can get a source more credible than the bible, maybe you'll have more luck. Until then... Stop fighting it bro.
For starters, I asked that you follow the Wikipedia links. See the bottom of the page. Google the people mentioned.
Yes, people deny the Holocaust. They deny that Elvis is dead. They deny the roundness of the earth. None of which proves anything.
Next, please read the link at the bottom of my previous post. Do your homework. PLEASE get back to me with the homework. The only way you'll convert me to your point of view is by doing the homework. And I'll not hold you to the 250-word essay requirement. 25 words will do. Heck, two words will do. Just say "Chapter One" or "Chapter Two".
Also... If we all came from a common anchestor.. Why are we not all the same? Why are there monkeys AND humans? Another question I have...why are you so informed about the bible if you don't believe it? Maybe you're fighting yourself. Sounds crazy but maybe you should yeild to it.
Genesis one AND genesis 2. "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable."
In hey you made a comment about how Balaam is not preached much anymore. How would you know? Do you go to church? Why don't you ask someone that does? Me. Yes they still preach about Balaam.
Anon, Different organisms evolved in different ways because of different environments. Kinda like Christianity evolved in different ways because of different environments. The Eastern Orthodox Church, for instance, now has almost nothing in common with a Euless TX Praise And Worship center.
On your second question....the only way you'll ever know as much about the Bible as I do? Take it very, very seriously. Yes, I go to a church. Some of my friends at this church take the Bible very seriously, but not literally. Some don't even take it seriously, but find that this church helps them find a deeper meaning in life.
Regarding your "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" quote....How do you know what is, and what isn't scripture?
The creation orders in Chapter One and Two of Genesis are mutually exclusive. They can't both be inspired and infallible. Please let me know which is the more likely order of Creation. (Hint: they're both folktales.)
How can you to a church..assuming it's Christian and not believe in the bible.. Which if you did you would believe in God, so you wouldn't have to put Him in quotes, and if you believed in God and the bible you would believe that what it says is literally true. Things supernaturally happened in the bible because God is a supernatural God. THAT'S the God I serve. What would a life with deep meaning do for you if you don't believe there are eternal benefits to the life we live on earth? You can't pick and choose from the bible. You either believe what it says or you don't. 2 timothy 3:16 says all scripture, which are the writings of the Bible, is given by inspiration of God. God wouldn't have allowed that to be written in a book that the religion is based off of if it were not true. He is in control.
About Genesis 1&2; Gen 2 is basically back tracking giving more detail about what happened and what God did while creating everything- plants and man etc
"You either believe what it says or you don't. 2 timothy 3:16 says all scripture, which are the writings of the Bible, is given by inspiration of God. God wouldn't have allowed that to be written in a book that the religion is based off of if it were not true. He is in control."
The first King James Bibles contained "The Book of Tobit" and "1st and 2nd Esdras" and "1st and 2nd Maccabees". So did the earlier Martin Luther version that he translated into German.
Were these books "scripture given by inspiration of God"?
How about The Book of Mormon? The Koran? The recently discovered Gospel according to Judas?
There have been lots of votes, councils, and meetings over the last 2,000 years to determine what is and isn't scripture.
Are you seriously a church going, God trusting fellow that is going to argue that God was not in control of those choices? I think our argument truly comes down to faith. Do you believe in God and that Jesus died for our sins or do you not? If we do not agree on this most basic point then debating over God's inspired word is useless. If one person says God is and the other says God is not, how can we argue about the works of God if there is not faith on both ends that He exists? Let me give you a feeble definition of God: the maker, provider, merciful, gracious, abundant in goodness, abundent in truth, forgiver of iniquities, forgivenesr of sin, forgiver of transgressions, longsuffering, just judge, preserver of bountifulnes, Lord of all creation, He who made the stars, the sea, and you and me.
Creationist Anon, Are you saying that God was in control of the decision to have The Book Of Tobit (and others) in the first KJV version, and therefore it was inspired at that point, but not now?
And our argument does come down to faith. I don't have faith in the ability of others to atone for me. If I offend you in some way (as I've said on this site numerous times) I can't make up for it by going into the back yard and beating the tar out of my dachshunds.
Dear sir, To get this strait, I believe that God is in control. I believe that the Bible is the way it is for a reason, and I don't know why and I don't have to know why. I am not God, I am a being that God created. "For I determined not to know anything among them save Jesus Christ and Him crucified" So all of the books of which you speak, I am not concerned with, and I don't plan to be. God knows what He is doing every step of the way. That's a God I can believe in.
In reference to your concern about offending me, please read Psalm 119:165. And if you did offend me, I would forgive you. Christians are certainly not perfect, but the power to forgive is one of the most important aspects of a happy and content life.
Creationist Anon, If you believe that God is in control, and the Bible is the way it is (but not the way it used to be) for a reason, then tell me this:
Is the Koran the way it is for a reason? Is God in control of it?
How about Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard? Is it that way for a purpose?
Tell me about the mad ravings to be found in Joseph Smith's "Book of Mormon".
The Bible you use came to you through a series of arguments, compromises, and votes. Why do you have more faith in some votes than others?
Regarding your verse from the Psalms.... I'll respond with Song Of Solomon 8:8
Out of all the inspired, infallible, inerrant things that the creator of heaven and earth could've given us, why do you think he gave us that bit of wisdom?
22 comments:
I've spent a lot of time in the last two weeks arguing with Creationists. Some of them talk archaeology, try to disprove Carbon-14 dating, etc etc etc.
I've never gotten anywhere with them until now.
Don't start with the fossil record, the depth of the Grand Canyon, or Darwin.
Start by arguing that snakes can't talk. They can't. They never have. Snakes can't talk.
Try it.
Silly Sepulchre... The serpent was Satan incranate or possessed! At least it was implied. Strongly implied!!
TarrantLibertyGuy, a possessed serpent is still a serpent, it still can't talk.
TLG and Jarl,
You could also see the serpent as a metaphor for temptation or the burdens associated with reason and knowledge.
Earlier in the same story, you coulld see the 6 days of creation as a metaphor for the building blocks of life and the place where early man saw himself in the plant and animal hierarchy.
Why are people so loyal to the ideal of the talking snake? And why do some Christians insist that the snake was Satan incarnate? It's a slippery slope argument that goes like this:
We're not worthy of anything but damnation, so Jesus had to die to save us from our sins. Why aren't we worth anything but damnation? Because we were born sinful. Why are we born sinful? Because of the concept of Original Sin. What is Original Sin? It's the idea that we inherit sinfulness that has been passed down to us ever since Eve at the forbidden fruit. Sin entered the world (and us) at that moment. And why did Eve eat the forbidden fruit? Because of the talking snake.
That story doesn't make a lick of sense, and here's why:
Snakes can't talk.
We've invented multi-leveled heavesns and hells, populated them with our friends and enemies, held inquisitions, gone on Crusades, perpetrated Holocausts, and wasted lots of time in the Texas legislature in the last 6 months to defend a house of cards that has a major flaw in its foundation. And that flaw is....
Snakes can't talk.
Really? I hear snakes talking all the time. Haven't you ever heard a lawyer open his mouth?
Um...
Well, the strangest creationist arguments I have always heard are moral ones.
"I you believe we came from slime then you'll act like slime".
To which I counter - but what slime!
Slime which send Neil, Mike and Buzz on a long weekend? Slime that built the Large Hadron Collider? Or wrote Bach's cantatas? Or the plays of Shakespeare?
That's slime I can believe in!
Anyway. If you take a shufti over at youtube you will find some beautiful animations of the molecular dynamics of life.
If I believed in God (which I don't) then I like to think I could see His hand more in such gorgeous intricacies than in Bronze Age fairytales.
Not as a designer. Just for letting it happen.
Because that, for me, truly is the tree of knowledge. Not of good and evil as much as just about stuff.
Dude.. You say that snakes can't talk now so they couldn't then. Let me guess.. You believe in evolution? Well monkeys can't talk and evolution "proves" that humans came from monkeys. And wait, doesn't evolution ALSO say that organisms started as simple celled?? Well then how can you argue that evolution is true, when monkeys can't talk but humans can, and at the same time argue that snakes can't talk NOW so it must mean they never could? It is completely contradictory.
In addition, if one believes in God, they would understand that God created the whole earth and everything on it and in the universe. If God can do that... Why couldn't He make an animal talk for a period of time? He can do WHATEVER He wants. He's God.
Nick,
Well said. I'm starting to define God more and more, not as male or female, not as present or "other", not as omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient, but as "THIS".
The sum total of everything.
It works for me.
Creationist Anon,
You are right in that if "God" does intervene in earthly matters, he could've made the serpent talk. He also could've made Balaam's donkey talk (check out the story in the book of Numbers).
But how long has it been since you heard anything about Balaam's donkey (aka Balaam's ass) ? Not many sermons are done about this poor critter these days. You know why?
BECAUSE DONKEYS CAN'T TALK ! ! !
Check out the latest Wikipedia article on Balaam, and follow the references ! The early Jewish commentators taught the story as a myth. Ditto for the Christians.
It's a folk tale ! The people that made it up knew that they were just telling a freakin' story ! And it doesn't even hold up well any more.
Another thing....let's accept the idea of a 6,000 year old earth. When did the last talking serpent or donkey die?
Do you accept the story that Mohammad ascended into the heavens and then to Medina on the back of a winged horse that had the face of a man? Could God have done that?
Have you noticed that talking varmints and miraculous healings have tapered off in the last few thousand years?
One other thing on evolution. The general idea is that man and monkeys (and cats and dogs and serpents and donkeys) all came from a common ancestor.
Homework assignment: write a 250 word essay about which Genesis timeline is more convincing, the one from chapter 1, or the one in chapter 2.
For details, go here: http://thewhitedsepulchre.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-to-teach-creationism.html
Well sir I'm sorry to tell you that people are trying to pass the Holocaust off as a myth as well. You can tell me I'm wrong all you want I have seen primary accounts of people declaring this. Now are you going to tell me that just because people SAY it didn't happen that it didn't?? Well apply this to what people think about Balaam and Genesis.
Please...don't try to put me down. I'm not swayed by insults.
And since when is wikipedia a credible source?? Many universities do not allow their students to even use that site. Why? Because it's not credible. So when you can get a source more credible than the bible, maybe you'll have more luck. Until then... Stop fighting it bro.
Creationist Anon,
I'm not trying to insult you.
For starters, I asked that you follow the Wikipedia links. See the bottom of the page. Google the people mentioned.
Yes, people deny the Holocaust. They deny that Elvis is dead. They deny the roundness of the earth. None of which proves anything.
Next, please read the link at the bottom of my previous post. Do your homework. PLEASE get back to me with the homework. The only way you'll convert me to your point of view is by doing the homework. And I'll not hold you to the 250-word essay requirement. 25 words will do. Heck, two words will do.
Just say "Chapter One" or "Chapter Two".
Also... If we all came from a common anchestor.. Why are we not all the same? Why are there monkeys AND humans?
Another question I have...why are you so informed about the bible if you don't believe it? Maybe you're fighting yourself. Sounds crazy but maybe you should yeild to it.
Genesis one AND genesis 2. "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable."
In hey you made a comment about how Balaam is not preached much anymore. How would you know? Do you go to church? Why don't you ask someone that does? Me. Yes they still preach about Balaam.
Anon,
Different organisms evolved in different ways because of different environments.
Kinda like Christianity evolved in different ways because of different environments. The Eastern Orthodox Church, for instance, now has almost nothing in common with a Euless TX Praise And Worship center.
On your second question....the only way you'll ever know as much about the Bible as I do? Take it very, very seriously.
Yes, I go to a church. Some of my friends at this church take the Bible very seriously, but not literally. Some don't even take it seriously, but find that this church helps them find a deeper meaning in life.
Regarding your "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" quote....How do you know what is, and what isn't scripture?
The creation orders in Chapter One and Two of Genesis are mutually exclusive. They can't both be inspired and infallible. Please let me know which is the more likely order of Creation. (Hint: they're both folktales.)
How can you to a church..assuming it's Christian and not believe in the bible.. Which if you did you would believe in God, so you wouldn't have to put Him in quotes, and if you believed in God and the bible you would believe that what it says is literally true. Things supernaturally happened in the bible because God is a supernatural God. THAT'S the God I serve. What would a life with deep meaning do for you if you don't believe there are eternal benefits to the life we live on earth? You can't pick and choose from the bible. You either believe what it says or you don't. 2 timothy 3:16 says all scripture, which are the writings of the Bible, is given by inspiration of God. God wouldn't have allowed that to be written in a book that the religion is based off of if it were not true. He is in control.
About Genesis 1&2; Gen 2 is basically back tracking giving more detail about what happened and what God did while creating everything- plants and man etc
Creationist Anon,
"You either believe what it says or you don't. 2 timothy 3:16 says all scripture, which are the writings of the Bible, is given by inspiration of God. God wouldn't have allowed that to be written in a book that the religion is based off of if it were not true. He is in control."
The first King James Bibles contained "The Book of Tobit" and "1st and 2nd Esdras" and "1st and 2nd Maccabees". So did the earlier Martin Luther version that he translated into German.
Were these books "scripture given by inspiration of God"?
How about The Book of Mormon?
The Koran?
The recently discovered Gospel according to Judas?
There have been lots of votes, councils, and meetings over the last 2,000 years to determine what is and isn't scripture.
Do you want to guess how they made their choices?
Are you seriously a church going, God trusting fellow that is going to argue that God was not in control of those choices?
I think our argument truly comes down to faith. Do you believe in God and that Jesus died for our sins or do you not? If we do not agree on this most basic point then debating over God's inspired word is useless. If one person says God is and the other says God is not, how can we argue about the works of God if there is not faith on both ends that He exists? Let me give you a feeble definition of God: the maker, provider, merciful, gracious, abundant in goodness, abundent in truth, forgiver of iniquities, forgivenesr of sin, forgiver of transgressions, longsuffering, just judge, preserver of bountifulnes, Lord of all creation, He who made the stars, the sea, and you and me.
Creationist Anon,
Are you saying that God was in control of the decision to have The Book Of Tobit (and others) in the first KJV version, and therefore it was inspired at that point, but not now?
And our argument does come down to faith. I don't have faith in the ability of others to atone for me. If I offend you in some way (as I've said on this site numerous times) I can't make up for it by going into the back yard and beating the tar out of my dachshunds.
Dear sir,
To get this strait, I believe that God is in control. I believe that the Bible is the way it is for a reason, and I don't know why and I don't have to know why. I am not God, I am a being that God created. "For I determined not to know anything among them save Jesus Christ and Him crucified"
So all of the books of which you speak, I am not concerned with, and I don't plan to be. God knows what He is doing every step of the way. That's a God I can believe in.
In reference to your concern about offending me, please read Psalm 119:165. And if you did offend me, I would forgive you. Christians are certainly not perfect, but the power to forgive is one of the most important aspects of a happy and content life.
Creationist Anon,
If you believe that God is in control, and the Bible is the way it is (but not the way it used to be) for a reason, then tell me this:
Is the Koran the way it is for a reason? Is God in control of it?
How about Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard? Is it that way for a purpose?
Tell me about the mad ravings to be found in Joseph Smith's "Book of Mormon".
The Bible you use came to you through a series of arguments, compromises, and votes. Why do you have more faith in some votes than others?
Regarding your verse from the Psalms.... I'll respond with Song Of Solomon 8:8
Out of all the inspired, infallible, inerrant things that the creator of heaven and earth could've given us, why do you think he gave us that bit of wisdom?
I think you mean Jeremiah 8:8
You have great posts. Was linked here through the Carnival of the Godless. Keep it up. I'll lurk here till I catch up.
to anonymous:
have you ever thought that snakes cant talk because THEY DONT HAVE VOICEBOXES????
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